tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-885527867833311224.post1168940671497859337..comments2024-01-17T02:41:29.011-06:00Comments on The Humanist Contemplative Blog: Why Determinism Doesn't Get Us Off The HookUnknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger7125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-885527867833311224.post-4389747537372833272007-09-28T07:01:00.000-05:002007-09-28T07:01:00.000-05:00That's a good summary of something I've al...That's a good summary of something I've always believed about determinism and free-will. I wonder why so many people arrive at the conclusion that morality and determinism are mutually exclusive? I've tried to explain my POV, unsuccessfully so far.<br><br>Some try to point to quantum indeterminacy as letting them off the hook as far as resolving the conflict goes, but to me it's a bit of a dodge to ascribe the validity of human level phenomena as hinging on something that takes place at the level of electrons and subatomic particles.<br><br>After all, until the late 20th century, we had no reason to believe anything was indeterminant in the realm of physics, and it just propogated upwards from there. Yet morality was far from irrelevant. I don't know how how much moral (or logical) denial is still caused by this percieved conflict.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-885527867833311224.post-60128709915929229182007-09-28T08:02:00.000-05:002007-09-28T08:02:00.000-05:00One of my pet one-liners in this case is "So ...One of my pet one-liners in this case is "So you have dice in your head, that's what makes you morally responsible?"<br><br>After all, indeterminacy <--> randomness, to some degree in whatever function is indeterminant.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-885527867833311224.post-2005780671018638662007-09-28T12:53:00.000-05:002007-09-28T12:53:00.000-05:00Thanks to you both for the comments. In my notes [...Thanks to you both for the comments. In my notes [#1] on that post, I address quantum mechanical concerns (or state why I don't address them at least), which are in agreement with what you both have said - good points :)DT Strainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-885527867833311224.post-82864091420540601982007-09-30T16:13:00.000-05:002007-09-30T16:13:00.000-05:00I know you're somewhat familiar with Tom Clark...I know you're somewhat familiar with Tom Clark's views on this. He's not arguing against moral accountability, only against that accountability which is based on the false belief (given determinism) that one could have done otherwise. Retribution loses it's justification under determinism. Deterrence, behavior modification, public safety, rehabilitation are other justifications for punishment which remain.<br><br>Determinism changes our subjective view of each other. Anger and hatred are affected when one recognizes the fact that we are always doing the best we can. Levels of punishment are somewhat subjective, based on how outraged we are by a crime and an offender, not simply how harmful it was. Our subjective rating of harmful behavior is affected by our worldview. Morality is unaffected by belief in determinism, but the correct response to criminal behavior is affected (not eliminated).<br><br>So I think you're partially right, determinism doesn't get us off all hooks, but it gets us off one hook, which, I'd argue is a bad one, since it's based on the false belief in contra-causal free will.<br><br>KenKen B.http://www.blogger.com/profile/08333533606097768895noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-885527867833311224.post-23798439561051015412007-09-30T21:33:00.000-05:002007-09-30T21:33:00.000-05:00Hi Ken,Thanks for reading and for your comments. W...Hi Ken,<br><br>Thanks for reading and for your comments. Well said. I'd agree that retribution doesn't make much sense under the model I've discussed. I have seriously reconsidered many of my previous thoughts on justice in the past few years, due in no small part to these concepts. :)DT Strainnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-885527867833311224.post-86958024396862001782008-11-14T23:26:00.000-06:002008-11-14T23:26:00.000-06:00Interesting post. I have recently written on simil...Interesting post. I have recently written on similar issues of ethics, determinism and the social sciences. I argue that there are many consequentialist theories of ethics that are consistent with hard determinism, and that this should be more recognized in the strongly (metaphysically) libertarian-leaning social sciences. (http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/archive/00004152/<br>in case anyone wants more detail).<br>ClintAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-885527867833311224.post-70741503256050997852008-11-15T07:04:00.000-06:002008-11-15T07:04:00.000-06:00Thanks Clint - it looks very interesting and I'...Thanks Clint - it looks very interesting and I'll take a deeper look asap. However, I can say at the outset I'd have a problem even addressing those who propose "a facile rejection of determinism on moral grounds". The very notion of rejecting a hypothesis as to the objective state of something on 'moral grounds' is nonsensical. Objective states are as they are, and hypotheses about them should be rejected or accepted based on supporting evidence for or against. The consequences to our preferences in morality are incidental to that first stage of seeking truth. We *then* have the scientist hand the data over to the philosopher to find for us a way to live with it (the 2nd stage). Anyone rejecting factual possibilities because of moral preference already has a fundamental logical and epistemological problem more profound than the issue at hand.<br><br>Thus, debating the veracity of x by trying to show that 'x isn't immoral after all' in some ways only encourages that corrupt system of thought. Like the problems with that thinking itself, it attempts to support 'stage 1' matters, using argument that belong in 'stage 2'. Nevertheless, since I am a philosopher at heart, and interested in stage 2, it is still intriguing to hear/read argumentation concerning the morality of deterministic models for those reasons :)DT Strainnoreply@blogger.com